Help with my budgie and linnie ?

[Shivali]

Hello everyone!
I have had my budgie, lotus (vet says she is female but there is some controver sy among online forums as she is albino and not dna'd), for a year and a half. she is super bonded to me and my husband, and is like our soulmate. We work from home so she is with us all day, hanging out on her various playstands or my husbands laptop etc. She is not used to being in her cage because she is so low maintenance and doesnt get into any trouble, and we are always with her. Our third floor is basically like an open layout aviary for her
Since we moved, to a place with an identical structure, she has shown more anxious behavior, not always but often- like just wanting to have her beak in my face all day and doing OCD dances if im paying attention to anything but her. Its been disconcerting since we try so hard with sleep, enrichment, attention, and diet (the hardest one for her). if anything we over cater to her needs which makes her more bossy. But what she really wants is for us to entertain her all day now, and for me to give her affection 24/7- which didnt use to be the case. She used be fine at home alone, keeping herself busy, and used to love car rides, now they make her nervous, etc. She also loved my two in-laws who we lived with previously.
My husband would say almost every day, that we need to get another bird, that its not fair to just have one bird, and that it would help ground her. I was concerned about the possible complications (what if they hate each other, what if they love each other too much etc), but after time i was reluctantly won over, with the help of my vet tech who is really experienced, to look for a cockatiel or linnie. Plus, Lotus is a love bug and doesnt really display that kind of aggressive dominant budgie behavior, except a little bit with her toys.

Well despite my reservations about getting another bird: I found my dream girl, Neelu, last month at our local bird store. I just fell head over heels and couldn't sleep until we brought her home.
During quarantine, she bonded deeply with me, and i also tried to spend equal time with Lotus, who became so clingy she wouldnt leave my face whenever i was with her. It was pretty exhausting. I showed Lotus videos of Neelu, and she chirped happily, saying "baby bird, shes such a good girl". She seemed to understand what was going on when i explained it to her. Meanwhile Neelu was just the sweetest most mellow girl ever. I felt bad about having to leave her in my bedroom for hours sometimes while we had lunch with lotus etc. But it was probably for the best as she was able to learn to entertain herself with her toys and favorite music/tv shows. I watched every video i could get my hands on about introducing birds, and i researched online constantly.

When i introduced them... because of Lotus being 'cage free'... keeping her in her cage now is very difficult, which didn't use to matter when she was an only bird. But i was unable to do the separate cages thing. So i tried a different technique of bringing them together close to my face. They were fine together, but I noticed Lotus was become very very anxious that i was paying attention to Neelu, that Neelu was on my shoulder etc. So when i put Neelu back, Lotus would be on my shoulder and trying to snuggle with my face, and show Neelu that she was my favorite bird. Neelu seemed hurt by this as well. So it was a delicate balance trying to get them to spend any time together. They both wanted to go in each others cages, Lotus was zooming around the room excitedly (idk how much was excitement and how much was passive aggressive behavior , and Neelu was annoyed at Lotus' hyper behavior. They were a bit intimidated of each other, the first few days, and Lotus was being hard to control and having no boundaries. She was being lighthearted, but to Neelu it felt very overbearing. Plus Lotus would try to hog all my attention. Suddenly im hyper aware of how different budgie and linnie personalities are.
So I have been separating them periodically, to try and give them attention, and doing things together to try to get them to bond, like eating millet, mealtimes, naptimes, sleep times, and shower time. This is after doing research about how these things will help them bond
Then suddenly, Lotus started calming down and being more interested in Neelu. She started talking to her, and Neelu would tolerate her budgie rants, unless she was hungry and at her food bowl I had them eating together at a feeding station and being"ok"...but still insecurity problems were arising if one of them was on me.
One day, we were in the shower - i have two perches, and one has an upper perch and a lower swing, usually they were on different levels but they decided to go to the one level, U shaped perch. Lotus started doing a square head sweet-talking to Neelu, and trying to give her human kisses (she puffs up her head and makes a kissing noise), which was so so cute. But Neelu seemed like she was tolerating it. But then She inched slowly away and would lean away when Lotus would try to kiss. Then suddenly i saw Lotus put her little foot on Neelu's back. Neelu's face was literally like "HELLP MEEE". So i immediately put my hand in and separated them. I think Lotus was just being a little dominant, but it did make me wonder, because it was kind of a masculine gesture. However i have heard of female budgies doing that to each other.
When i separated them, Lotus bit me as well, which is very rare. Her bite doesn't hurt, and she only ever play bites us, but this one was pretty pinchy... which made me wonder if she really is a male and was being hormonal?

Ever since then, things shifted between them. When we had them together, both cages , tons of playstands, hanging out on the third floor, Neelu suddenly started screaming when Lotus would fly out of her view. Ear splitting shrieks and leaning in her direction (she came clipped and still cant fly). It was obvious she didnt like Lotus flying away and wanted her to come back, or wanted to be with her. Every time Lotus would fly to a new playstand, Neelu would screech after her. She would jump on me and i would carry her to Lotus. But lotus was very overwhelmed by Neelu's presence now, and would fly away from her.
We couldn't figure out why she was screeching for Lotus constantly, and then Lotus didn't want to be around her. So we just separated them to different rooms.
Both times this happened, Neelu settled down when she was back in my bedroom and i spent a few minutes with her. She was soon back to her chill self. This has happened a couple of days in a row now. Today when i woke up and uncovered their cages and let them out, Neelu started in on her shrieking and continued until we brought Lotus upstairs. Later I was watching a cute video of them on a jute orb together, Lotus is talking to Neelu, and I was going to send it to someone. When neelu saw the video she became super agitated and shrieked, which concerned me...

So I started wondering, is Neelu really calling for Lotus because she wants to be with her, or is she just trying to intimidate her and chase her away?
If you have read this far, bless you! I just wanted to give a clear picture because i would really love some thoughts on this, and what you would do to proceed. Especially hoping for a response from Eddie's Aviary on this one
I am praying that they will get along someday, and i know it will take time. Its only been a week at this point.
I know there is always the possibility they wont, but...i don't want to even think about that. Trying to stay positive as there have been alot of good signs, and no flat out fights.
Thanks everyone!

 

[Eddie's Aviary]

Ok, I read the whole thing! In order to keep the conversation easy and clear to read, lets take it a couple steps at a time. First thing, can you post a few pictures over the last six months of your blue ino (some call them albino, or creamino) Budgie? I would like to look at the cere. Both "albino" sexes can have similar colored ceres, but hens will often go whiter, or light brown. That said, sex of the budgie matters not very much in the case of your Linnie and it getting along. Budgies (especially hens) can have very different attitudes when hormonal. It is always best to introduce a new flock member when a bird isn't raging for mating. That's easy to see in ceres of budgies that aren't your mutation, and tough in Linnies. When feather condition is perfect and they look like they are made out of velvet... that is likely breeding time = hormones.

So, I go to the next question.... did you quarantine the new bird in separate air space for quarantine, or are they in the same room from when you first got Neelu? If no quarantine (not judging you), how long have you had Neelu, and they are in the same cage?

Let's answer those and then I can respond and ask something else. It will help get to the bottom of it.

 

[Shivali]

Thank you so so much for your reply... i will post some pics from my phone in the next post.
I quarantined Neelu for 6 weeks, in my bedroom. I have had her since January 11th. They are in separate cages, but the cages look similar so they are very interested in checking the other's out.( They have a third larger neutral cage which they are not ready for yet , a large PVC that i havent set up yet, various neutral playstands/hanging stuff, and each have their own playstands. Im trying to keep their "things" separate, but its hard because they just want to play with each other's stuff
Lotus (budgie), to be honest, has a tendency to look velvety and pretty all the time. just always gorgeous and rarely patchy. she is frequently moulting and growing feathers, but its sort of a mild ongoing thing (also because of the white feathers you dont really see the pins). As far as a heavy moult, sometimes she will do it once a year and get a little patchy around the face. Lotus has a tendency to be "lovey dovey" in general, especially with her favorite toys. She is not into foraging or chewing much, she prefers delicate toys that she can talk to and 'roleplay' with. Today she jumped on Neelu's back, so i dont know if thats a further indication.

**As an update, the day i posted this things were rough- i called Bird Supply and spoke to a young woman who said to try taking them out one at a time, 15 mins, rotating playing with them. I did that for a few hours and, miraculously that helped alot. i was worried that Lotus wouldnt tolerate it, or it would torture them, but they have been much better since then.
Plenty of awkward moments and screeching still...but it seems now like Neelu is just screeching for Lotus when she flies away, rather than constantly. She seems to want to be with Lotus constantly and is distressed when Lotus flies away to a different playstand etc. Its not like the sweet flock call she does for me though, its ear piercing. When im alone with her, she is just a sweet laid back chill buddy.
They seem less intimidated by each other although there are plenty of moments of insecurity esp if i start giving kisses.
As Im typing this, they are miraculously chilling...Neelu is in her cage with the door open and Lotus is on her entryway perch, serenading her... so enjoying a moment of peace however temporary...

SO things are suddenly much better but i still welcome any advice and suggestions! I want to make sure i do this right... I felt so bad when Neelu was screaming her head off every second that Lotus was in the room! ill send pics next.

 

[Shivali]

the Budge budge.

 

[Eddie's Aviary]

Handsome budgie! How old? Cere color is so hard to judge when young, and ino makes some of the usual "rules" not so much so.

How long have you had Neelu? I find it takes at least a month for a Linnie to truly "settle in" to the new home. Screeching is usually out of fear. She may just be a bit insecure still, and meeting a more established bird can cause a little anxiety. Keep doing what you are doing, forward progress is a fantastic move forward. I think you will find success. If the Linnie is clipped, and the budgie not.... that can cause the clipped one to not feel the playing field is equal... something else to consider.

 

[Shivali]

Aww thank you! Everyone goes crazy over her at the vet because she is so pretty and tame. They told me they thought female. But it’s true, hard to tell. She also seems to have both masculine and feminine characteristics .
Not even quite 2 years old. As far as I know.
At petsmart they had no idea how old the budgies were
but I guessed about three months because she was totally clumsy and going through a really ugly moult. She was hideous, which was why she was one of only three left that wouldn’t sell- other budgies had chewed her feathers and pooped on her and she looked awful and depressed and so ragged and patchy. Albinos look very sickly when they are patchy
Even the one of workers discouraged me from getting her because she looked “funky”.
Well it was their loss and my gain

Neelu was 3months in January so that would make five going on six months.

you are totally right about settling in and I think they just needed more time…and I totally agree what you said about her being clipped, I think it’s awfully frustrating to see lotus zooming around.
They are getting so so much better now. Hoping for continued improvement…

The main issue right now I’m facing is Lotus issue… which is not too bad, but it’s that Lotus is obsessed with a toy and constantly feeds it and tried to mate with it… to the exclusion of Neelu who is trying to follow her around everywhere, and learn the ropes so, to speak.
Lotus seems pretty uninterested in her, when she does interact with her it’s sort of in a cute budgie way (giving kisses, talking), that sensitive neelu finds a bit overbearing …

the toy issue is super complicated and I’ve been following my vet techs advice but omg I would really value your advice about it.

lotus was a happy fluff ball until we moved a few houses down last September (EXACT same layout though).
She was also bonded with our in laws with whom we lived before the move.
when she was a baby I tried to discourage extreme bonding with them because I knew we would move. But of course everyone thought I was being a lunatic and eventually she did naturally bond with everyone in the house. But being a budgie I wasn’t too concerned, esp as her main bond was with me.
Anyway during the move, She became super agitated and needed constant attention all day. The only thing that calmed her down was a toy I made. She was so obsessed we had to bring it with her everywhere so she wouldn’t be anxious…
she can be really weird and sensitive almost like a cockatoo if that makes sense…

We thought it was cute and called it Kiki.

Now she is so obsessed with this toy that she constantly feeds it (brings up whole seeds then eats them, no ‘paste’, fortunately)
And rubs her vent on a perch while holding on to it.
if it’s not in a place where she can “do her thing”, she gets angry and screechy.
If Kiki is put away or in another room- screechy.
If we take it away… which I did once because I had it in her sleep cage (she would get angry if I didn’t put it in)… and she spent a whole day on this one perch feeding and rubbing with this toy. Her poor little cloaca looked raw … So I was concerned for her health and took it away…. Horrible shrieks, screeching in the ear, zooming while screeching. For days. Chirping herself hoarse, and asking, “where’s Kiki”, over and over and over and over.
We feel so awful at her distress that we always give it back.
It’s like she has pair bonded with it.
Still strongly bonded to us, that hasn’t changed.
And she’s still a total sweetie and super affectionate and fun…
She’s just gone a bit bonkers over this toy and I don’t know if it’s ok, or what to do. It’s a full on obsession and if it’s normal and healthy I don’t mind… but it can often cause this constant agitation and ocd behavior where we don’t know exactly what she wants…
she does this thing where she chirps agitatedly, flicking and shivering her wings, and is dipping down over the perch, like she’s going to do a flip… like she is falling off the perch and then regaining her balance. She will just do this endlessly, then do loops, then the screech will start. When we first moved, I used to feel like I was spending all day trying to appease her.

usually it seems that she wants the toy to be in a very specific place/position. And every time I look over it seems that she is rubbing…

we have played with longer sleep, naps, enrichment, we are always buying /making new toys and play stands for her. She doesn’t get into her other toys, even foraging ones with millet. Vet says she is the healthiest budgie she has seen, with perfect muscle tone etc. If anything she may be too spoiled and we let her run the house in order to avoid “the screech”.

Any thoughts? My vet tech (everyone calls her a parakeet expert) says to let her have the toy outside but not in any cages. This helped but the issue (assuming it is an issue?) is still there..

 

[Eddie's Aviary]

This sounds like male behavior. Have a recent picture of the cere? I wouldn't encourage the obsession with the toy. No mirrors in the cage, right?

How much daily light? Ambient counts.

 

[Shivali]

Hmm, interesting …
Definitely no mirrors!
But we have a few large mirrors around the house, when she comes to the bathroom with me there is a big round one that I have a suction perch on for her, and another big one on the third floor with a jute orb that hangs in front of it, she likes to play in front of the big mirrors and will interact with her (I’m so used to saying her but I’m thinking maybe a dna test might be good) reflection but not in an obsessive way. so I never thought it was an issue,
I know someone with a budgie (I actually go over and care take for their budgies) and before I was helping take care of them , he had one lonely male budgie who was obsessed with his mirror and constantly regurgitating on it… it was so sad!
I took a risk (and took away the mirror) and adopted a rescue girl and they are now a happy bonded pair .but I may know what a mirror obsessed budgie looks like … lotus is not that into the mirrors thank goodness.
just the toy!
The cere is the same as in the above pics, it doesn’t seem to change, I’ll see if I can find the most recent pic or take one.

light… we have tried a few things… usually she gets a solid 12 hours of sleep , 10 at the least, with a one or two hour nap.
However during neelus quarantine in my bedroom -
she was sleeping upstairs in my husbands office, we have also a bedroom there, and he slept with her (they are bonded too and she loves to go to work with him in the morning , which was sweet. But she was getting shortchanged at first because there are skylights and it gets so light very early, she was waking up super early. That’s when we instituted longer nap times and tried to get her to bed earlier, but for about a month her schedule was different.
Now she is back in my room.

Our home gets a lot of Sun and light and one of her play stands is under a sky light so even in the winter she gets almost as much light as we do… we only take her outside when it’s warm.

so…what do you suggest? If we take away the toy, lotus becomes an inconsolable lunatic…
Should we just stick it out and hope for the best?
I feel so bad at how horribly distressed she becomes.
The mirror budgie I mentioned earlier was distraught briefly without the mirrors, and he had been deeply addicted for years to them.
He even bit me and drew blood when I took them away. But he got over it pretty fast.

But lotus is on a whole other level- just becomes a total crazy shrieking bat and will not calm down if we take thaway. She will sit on my shoulder and scream in my ear non stop. That vocal fry shriek that’s like, “GEGEGEGEGEGE”
She is so wide-eyed, distraught and miserable that it feels almost abusive to let her continue in that state… but if it’s for the best I will do it, I trust you…. I’m just worried about traumatizing her …the longest we went was three or four days, it was awful.
we love this bird so much and it’s awful to see lotus in that state.
Any ideas for us about weaning her (him?)off the toy if that’s what you think we should do?

 

[Eddie's Aviary]

Looks like a male to me if over 10-12 months old. Below is a pic of a female that is coming into a broody cycle (not my bird, copyright belongs to the poster HERE). If you have never seen any brown on the cere, I would say its a male. I also don't see white rings around the nostrils, a tell-tale young female trait.

Adorable picture! The beak on the Linnie looks a little long, I find that is caused by a bout of stress, but can also be genetic or diet related, though usually not the case. The budgie looks a hair long too. Be sure to offer an abrasive perch and toys that encourage beak activity to keep them trim. Linnies aren't big cuttlebone users, but it is good practice to offer one, as well as a mineral block for both species.

 

[Shivali]

We’ve never seen the brown cere, and I was wondering about that!
I give them cuttlebone and I can see that they are using them…not excessively though.
But no abrasive perches, because I was told that they are bad for their feet (bumble foot) and /or they can ingest the sand.

do you have any safe perch recommendations? Or should I take them in to get a filing? Do you recommend that or is it bad for them?

do you have mineral block recommendations? I had one then took it away because I heard some horror stories about some of them not being regulated and making birds really sick . Also was given impression that they aren’t healthy because they are so processed.

sorry for picking your brain so much, thanks!

should I take her toy away? I received advice on another forum to take it away and then re train her behavior by rewarding her When she is calm and ignoring her tantrums, putting her in a cage if she tantrums for over an hour, then taking her out and trying again. They said it would take weeks.
Does this sound like good advice to you , what would you do? I don’t want to do the wrong thing with her.
I haven’t given her the toy yet this morning and as we speak she is zooming around, making that loud buzzy shriek.

(It may take me a looong time to start calling lotus a him, it’s a deeply ingrained habit.
But I can see your points… sometimes there are little white rings around the nostril but… it’s very subtle compared to some other females I’ve seen. No brown, also the talking and square head flirtation.
but she/he does this thing that looks almost like female display, tipping forward with the tail up, and wings out. Sometimes will flick the wings…do males do this too? I don’t think my husband will accept that she’s a male because she is a real daddy’s princess may have to dna test if I wanted to convince him)

 

[Shivali]

hello! I had posted in a budgie forum about the toy issue, and was told to remove the toy.., And stick with it. I decided to try again … it’s two days in and Lotus is so miserable and just inconsolable.
Its so horrible, am I doing the right thing?
The it’s worse because she speaks and understands English.
she will ask about Kiki all day, when my husband comes in she flies to him and desperately asks, Do you have Kiki?
Yesterday she looked at me, shaking, eyes wide, and in a cracking voice asked “What’d you do Kiki?” I literally broke down crying and tried to explain everything to her- she comforted me like she always does, pressing her beak under my nose until I felt better.
She is so heartbroken, and right now, is on a little shower perch on the master bathroom mirror, crying to herself and shaking her wings. She won’t even eat millet.
please, can someone help?
I don’t know if I can do this, I’m so emotionally connected to her. plus I feel so bad because I feel like it’s my fault , for maybe letting her get too attached to me, then moving, which made her stress and insecurity worse, then getting a new bird which we are happy about but hoped would make her happier- but I think it also brought out more insecurity…
I feel like bad bird mom, and i feel terrible because I have tried so hard, my whole world revolved around lotus ever since I brought her home. I love her more than anything in the world. Of course now I can’t say I love her more than neelu, but we have history.
I know it’s my first bird and they are complex, but I can’t stop crying knowing that my little soul mate is so heart broken, and worrying that im doing the wrong thing, and hurting her(him?)…

 

[Eddie's Aviary]

I would take it out, replace with another toy (spiral straws, kabobs, balsa balls all favs) and rearrange the cage. Spray him to soaking wet daily, it really helps keep them busy preening. That time to focus on something else is helpful.

You are not a bad momma! Sometimes we have to do the tough things for the greater good. This will pass, hang in there!

 

[Shivali]

Ok, thank you… I feel better about it now that you’ve validated we are doing the right thing.
Had a couple of mini breakthrough moments today in between the craziness , so I’m feeling more hopeful now. I made lots of new toys, lotus is not so much into shredding but likes delicate little colorful charms …
Lotus also hates getting wet and will fly off as soon as I spray- maybe i can corner him in the shower (faucet off)… I will try that.
Thank you so much for your support !!!